Hi! I am with a beer brand in Western Canada and we are looking to have some draught handles designed by a sculptor who uses intricate details. We would like to find a middle-ground where she might be able to sculpt something for us and we can reliably reproduce them for our business.

An example of the sculptor’s work: http://i.imgur.com/GmD9GdH.jpg

We have some contacts in the video game industry who might be able to aid in the adaptation from physical sculpture to 3D model. Can anyone in the industry help us out as we will be looking to commission the printing and other reproductions over the year.

We are looking to build an ongoing relationship to ensure colours, materials, and quality are consistent.

Cheers!

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Hey there @eglinski. I think Matter and Form may be able to help you. They produce a desktop 3D scanner in Toronto. Give their CEO; Drew Cox a shout on 416-533-6767 and I’m sure he’ll sort you out.

Cheers,

AndyL

Pot8oSh3D

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Thanks for this. I will look into them and see if this is a viable option!

Thanks @Marius! We would be doing small batches of handles to start, in the dozens. Not sure about which materials and we have yet to discuss the actual designs themselves, re: complexity and colour reproduction, until we learn more about what is possible to reproduce. Need to learn more about how 3D printing handles colours and the various materials we can print with. Any resources will be greatly appreciated.

Hi there !

do you want alternating draught handles ? I mean if you need very much (speaking of 1000+) you should concider injection molding and working together with an industrial buisness.

If you need different parts and amounts of less then 100 per handle version then 3d printing is the method that you want.

Anything inbetween there is kind of a dead-zone, neither method is costeffective for those amounts.

What level of detail do you expect for the handles and what is the price that you want to pay for each handle ?

Is full color required ? The example of the sculptor is obviously in different colors, but i don’t know if that is necessary for the handles.

Depending on the absolute amount of parts that you want you should concider buying a 3d printer, the Ultimaker 2 is one of the easiest to setup, reliable and precise.

Some more information on the project would be appreciated.

Because i have only experience in printing, but not in scanning i can just help you with that, for other information Pot8oSh3D has posted some recommendations

-Marius

Interesting to hear that !

Do you want me to bring up a little material comparision ?

Regarding possibilities there is nearly no limit in 3d printing, the only limitation (as allways) is the cost. Full color prints are made out of some “sugar-like” powder plastic that fuses with special ink, these parts get hardened in a glue-bath but are still fairly brittle and maybe (i don’t know exactly) dissolve in water or can rot over time, especially when the parts regulary come in contact with water (beer).

That’s the only full-color method of 3d printing that i know of, those part are also reasonable expensive with very high accuracy.

Other methods use metal powder (SLS), resins (SLA), plastic cords (FDM, most common on 3d Hubs).

I could also make a little prototype for you, just so that you can imagine how the 3d printed parts would look (notice that i use FDM printing, which is the most common but is restricted to -in my case- two colors, also FDM is not as accurate as for example full-color prints).

The advantages of SLS, SLA and the full-color method (i forgot the name) are precision and the materials, you can get 3d prints out of 100% metal with this method.

FDM is the cheapest and most common use, you are usually limited to a hand of thermoplastic materials (melting plastics),

however there are brands that currently sell metal blends with Bronze, Copper, Brass, Steel and Iron. Also there are blends with wood, bamboo and carbon fibres.

FDM is limited in the way, that some prints need support structures, which increases cost slighly. Also FDM prints are less precise (we are speaking about some 0,1mm, some materials contract alot while cooling so that the tolerances vary depending on material choise).

I don’t think, that it matters really much when the handle is a little thinner then the design. Depending on the resolution that you want it can be, that the different layers, that get printed are visible. For resolutions around 0,05mm the surface is really smooth (this also depends on the material choise).

I offer alot of materials and i could do a little print (free) for you so that you can get a feeling for what quality you can expect from FDM printers.

Contact me if you are interested via email or 3dHubs:

marius.breuer@cad-breuer.de

https://www.3dhubs.com/siegen/hubs/marius

-Marius

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A good overview, Marius. That more or less covers the options.

I’d agree that, in all likelihood, full-colour printing would be unsuitable for a beer tap. There are several technologies but they’re nearly all too delicate for this application and are really suited to more decorative applications. For instance, the best, in my opinion, involves cutting pre-printed layers from paper and bonding them together. While the resulting prints offer very high colour resolution, they simply wouldn’t last very long. If what you’re after is a shield or badge of some sort, there may be a technology available which could be coated with something robust like XTC-3D.

Marius’ mention of wood-filled FDM materials reminds me that you could achieve an effect similar to carved wood. Interestingly, this material changes colour, depending on the printing temperature so one can vary this during the printing process and achieve a wood grain effect. The prints can be sanded and lacquered for a really robust finish too.

Sounds like a really interesting project. I wish you the best of luck with it. Please do post the results here when you get some.

Cheers,

AndyL

I thought about exactly that, while writing the line with the wood filament !

I guess a dual extrusion with metal composite + wood would look really good aswell.

The only thing that is not printable are knotholes and the grain would only be horizontal because there is extruder that changes temperature that quick while printing one layer.

However this is definitely a really interesting project.

-Marius

I haven’t tried it myself but I’m given to understand that the variation in temperature required is relatively small but you’re right; There’s no way you’d be able to print knots. For sure, this process would limit you because you’d need to decide on a build orientation early in the design process but, as you say, a combination of woodfill and bronze/brass could be really stunning.

AndyL

Also there is Copper, the redish shine would make a great combination with wood or maybe even better with bamboo since it is a little bit more yellow-ish/beige-ish. I have added pictures of a lion face, that i printed in CopperFill. One time i only brushed it with a brass brush and steel wool, the other time i also used some black paint for the cavities. Brasso (polish) has yet to arrive for the shine at the moment the print is relatively dark and looks “old”, the polish will bring the red shine back.

I also had terrible light for the 2nd picture :confused:

-Marius

Hi There,

We may very well be able to help you out with this at the IoT Shop. We use a variety of techniques for prototype production. If these are going to be installed on taps in bars, it may actually make sense to prototype them with 3D printing, but CNC machine them from solid stock when building the installation version. We’re in Vancouver, so pretty easy in terms of shipping stuff around and getting together to chat when needed. Also, we have production partners in the injection and casting space for larger volumes.

Email trent (at) iotdesignshop.com if you want to discuss some more.

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Based on the sculpture sample you linked to, I would be very hesitant to run this on an FDM machine. They are not great at intricate details. In my opinion, the best solution is to print the pattern on an SLA / resin printer and then cast in metal to ensure durability. Casting in resin could work also, but metal is awesome. I suggest contacting Forecast 3D in California: http://www.forecast3d.com/. They have a Viper Pro SLA printer. It really doesn’t get any better than that.

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Hi !

I don’t think, that SLA prints would survive metal casting (please proove me wrong, would be amazing). FDM sure isn’t as precise but FDM prints are very much cheaper and you can use material blends like wood fibre blends as well as metal composites.

The level of detail with those handels is sure a challenge for FDM printers but there are prosumer FDM machines (like mine, luckily) that would be capable of such sculptures. Depending on the sculpture, printing with FDM is no possible, very thin details like the plant on the wolves back will for sure not come out good in a FDM machine, but i don’t think, that the handles will have such structure.

Does Forecast3d have a Hub here (link please) or do you own such a SLA printer ? I would like to know your/Forecast3d’s pricing per cm³ and the starting cost, i have a concept that is not realizable with my FDM machine and therefore would like to check out a Hub with SLA machines :wink:

-Marius

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At Technology Salad we 3D print highly detailed models on the Form1+ SLA printers, the highest resolution is .025mm (50 micron and 100 micron resolution also available). We also 3D print on the Mendel 90 FDM machines. We are also creating a variant of the Herculien FDM printer(https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/108524206628971601859) which provides great quality prints on a large build platform(338x358x320+) at some very fast speeds, our Herculien variant is intended to be an “Industrial” class FDM 3D printer using the latest technologies(we’re beta testers for bleeding edge FDM components).

The resins used with the Form1+ SLA printers accept many different types of post-processing. As a start to reveal the many types of finishing applicable to this resin visit http://formlabs.com/products/finishing/ .

If you head over to the forums at Formlabs there are many threads devoted to post-processing models printed on the Form1+ SLA printer, the above link http://formlabs.com/products/finishing/ provides some info on electroplating models. But I encourage you to visit the forums http://forum.formlabs.com/

Our hub is here https://www.3dhubs.com/vancouver/hubs/technology-salad

Cheers and good journeys!

Brent

Technology Salad

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Hi Brent, I am currently working on metal plating for FDM prints myself. I use electrolytic galvanizion as method. I thought you said that it is possible to make metal castings with SLA prints as molds, for that the print has to be ridiculously heat resistant. Is that possible or was covering the print with metal your idea? -Marius

Thanks so much for this insight, @TechnologySalad — I will look into them!

Thanks Trevor, I will reach out in the next week or two and we can chat more.

Thank you, Marius. I will be looking into this over the next weeks and will reach out when I have some formal questions re: prototyping and production, costs, etc!

Everyone is super helpful, and I will definitely post any results we find as we move ahead with this project.

You aren’t pouring molten metal over the printed part. You go through a few moulding steps to end up with a wax replica of your original pattern. The wax pattern is then moulded in plaster and put in a kiln to burn out the wax. Now you’ve got a mould into which you can pour metal. There are burn-out resins on the market which can go directly to investment casting in place of wax although you may have to hunt around for a foundry that is willing to work with them. The point is simply that the process starts with a pattern made in some material. The sculptor could carve it out of wood if that was more direct in which case you wouldn’t need to digitize the model.

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