SOC3D
16
@Iceman24k,
Very well put.
We use these calculations to find a price range for FDM printing based on PLA/ABS/PETG:
These are rough numbers and ranges the actual figures are considered proprietary.
Electric:
200W-750W Low end and High end
$.15 per KWH cost (Includes lighting and cooling overhead)
$.03 to $.1125 operating cost per hour
Filament:
Wholesale $16 per spool, Retail $25 per spool
Waste 10%
PLA 1.25g/cm3 $.022 to $.034 per cm3 (petg and abs are a little different due to density)
Printer depreciation:
Take the total cost of the printer, divide it by 24 hours, then 30 days then 3 months (or 2160) which is the cost to acquire a new printer every 90 days. For printers over $2,160 we use 180 days or 6 months.
$0.27-$1.04 per hour
3D Hubs fee
Student Discount*
Average failure rate is under 10% of time and materials.
Based on that my last large “Draft Mode” print which is meant for rapid prototypes at a low cost not for production quality or display/presentation prints came in at $.10 per cm3 for a little over $225. The actual print cost including support removal was $168.01 based on the high estimates. Those prices include buying a new $5,000+ printer in 3-6 months (probably a markforged or resin based machine)
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“That is precisely why there are minimum prices set across all industries.”
Where? Your hub must be located in Venezuela.
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Dictionary:
“price-fixing: the maintaining of prices at a certain level by agreement between competing sellers.”
Wikipedia:
"Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product, service, or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand.
The intent of price fixing may be to push the price of a product as high as possible, generally leading to profits for all sellers but may also have the goal to fix, peg, discount, or stabilize prices. The defining characteristic of price fixing is any agreement regarding price, whether expressed or implied.
Price fixing requires a conspiracy between sellers or buyers. The purpose is to coordinate pricing for mutual benefit of the traders. For example, manufacturers and retailers may conspire to sell at a common “retail” price; set a common minimum sales price,…"
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Awesome Breakdown Miaviator!!! AWESOME! Well composed and thought out, Thank You Very much for this and taking the time to write it! This helps me! THANK YOU!!!
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SOC3D
20
@Matterthings and others,
In case you are not aware, 3D Hubs already has “a base price that no one can go lower”. https://puu.sh/qqOvK/5bb3572f47.png I’ve run into this lack of freedom several times. I’ve tried to remove the startup cost and tried to give away free prints at Christmas time.
Imagine if someone is using a filament extruder they built at home and printing with FREE recycled plastic on a 3D printer they built or bought for next to nothing? Cost per cm3 could be down to $.01-$.02 or even sub penny. That Hub would already be forced to charge $1 per order + at least $.01 per cm3 even though there is a good chance they could make a profit at $.0075-$.008 per cm3. That is what the free market is about.
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Hello Mindfull.
Please read our post again. You brought the Fixed price idea into this conversation. We clearly have stated that we would like to see BASE PRICE so nobody can operate below cost making things fair for everyone.
From Wikipedia: Cost-based pricing strategy is based on the seller’s cost meaning that the set price covers all the costs of the production.
Reagards
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Why the aggression?
We are trying to be constructive and you have made your point.
If you think we are in Venezuela you must be located in Mars.
Regards,
Jose
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Now you are conflating an individual entity’s business strategy with the regulating of an entire market place. If you don’t understand that BASE PRICE = PRICE FIXING, and that this kind of thinking is counter productive and destructive anytime it has been implemented in history, then I don’t know what else to say other than I’m thankful you are not in charge.
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Hello Miaviator!
Thank you, this is a great contribution.
Without saying that you are backing our proposal of a minimum price, your calculations are a great way to show that there is indeed an operational cost and that there should be a base price that no one should be able to go below.
Thank you for the time you have taken.
Regards,
José
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Aggression? Just trying to debunk misinformation.
In my opinion the policy you are proposing is aggressive.
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Hallo Mindfull.
“This kind of thinking is counter productive” according to? … You and the people that share your ideas.
If you are not capable of respecting other points of view and think that yours is the only truth, then we are also glad that you re not in charge.
One can tell that you just enjoy stirring things up just for fun. Please stay within the topic of our proposal.
You have voted against it and made your point. If you want to talk about capitalism and economy, please open another Talk.
Regards,
Jose (not from Venezuela but from Germany)
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So all of us must have the same operating costs? What if someone is running off solar panels? What about people who make their own filament?
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How am I off topic? I respect facts. The more that a point of view is supported with them, the more respect it deserves.
(off topic on my part but) You Are Awesome! I am speechless, Doesn’t it feel awesome to give the prints away, and see the sparkles in the eyes of the ones on the receiving end! That warms my little heart, I love giving away little prints… I give away probably about 20 makerbot fish per week(and some Big Prints as well)…just for fun(to spread the word and to invoke thought
! People are absolutely amazed and pluss it is something they remember! I have had some coming back asking to Buy more Fish afterwords lol. But the main thing is; I am giving away knowledge and Ideas, and if I can influence one person out of all of them to follow their dreams and do something they love, then I have won in my eyes. It is a priceless feeling to give a child a 3d printed object, that would otherwise never be able to afford one. The children are our future, and children and adults both seem to be blown away by the power of computing when it manufactures a solid real object at the click of a button.
I was thinking the same thing too, I bumped up against something similar before. Trying to drop my prices to build up my feedback. Miaviator I would love to shake your hand sometime for real! You seem like an awesome person. Keep on Geekin On! and HAPPY PRINTING my friends! 
It is thoughtful Kind Hearted People That Make this world tolerable. Thank You
let’s keep 3d printing evolving and make it available to all…for the rich and the poor! and everything in between…
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I am genuinely unaware of a system you described, “minimum prices set across all industries.”, off the top of my head other than Venezuela. Not meant to be aggressive/offensive.
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SOC3D
32
@Matterthings José,
My calculations above show a real world operational cost for my hub operation. I believe I’m overpriced even at $.10 per cm3 as the calculations show I can make a profit in equipment and dollars at prices as low as $.05 per cm3.
The calculations from my other post below which I will expand upon here show that the CURRENT BASE PRICE already implemented by 3D Hubs is currently to high and may stifle future free market competition allowing another platform to encroach upon 3D hubs service.
Filament:
Recycled water bottles and other household plastics.
$0.00 per cm3
*It is important to note that the cost of filament could run into negative territory. If someone sets up a recycling center or sets up shop at a recycling center they could theoretically charge a small fee to recycle plastics which would yield them a negative cost per cm3 of filament.
Electric:
Solar or hydro power utilized for a home or another business.
$0.00 per hour (cost is written off for another entity)
Printer Depreciation:
Using modular design and true reprap philosophies the depreciation of a home made printer can easily reach less than 1% per month. Upgrades and new printers could be purchased for very little ($65-$100 using direct from china electronics and 3D printed parts)
Hourly or per CM3 cost of around $.005
3D Hubs Service Fee
Student Discount: Not offered to keep prices lower.
Labor and Profit: If this is a part time or ancillary business venture the printer would operate in an existing shop and simply bring in extra revenue. Very slim margins would be needed.
This scenario, which is not far fetched, would result in a per cm3 cost below THE CURRENT 3D HUBS FORCED BASE PRICE of $.01 per cm3 and $1 per order.
I would be willing to invest some money into a hub who wishes to operate this way and offer sub $.01 per cm3 prints.
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SOC3D
34
Also off topic:
We actually print a ton of the Cube Gears off thingiverse for office workers to put on their desks. Every time we give one away we hear back that all visitors walk in, pick up the cube and start twisting it and asking questions. I ran into an issue a while back where I had dozens of spools of 10-100g of filament that I didn’t want to throw away and couldn’t use for orders so I just started printing pokemon and other little trinkets to give away.
It’s the same type of evangelism we did with bitcoin in 2010-2012 and continue today. We used to give out 10BTC ($30 at the time $6,000 now) silver physical bitcoins to promote awareness. Although I don’t think anyone will be selling a cube for 200X what they cost in a few years the goal of spreading awareness still applies.
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Hello Miaviator
Your input is great.
3D hubs has operational costs and lives on the commission that they make on us. At $.10 per cm3 there is no business for them or for us.
We are not very different from a mechanic in a garage who has operational costs and charges a certain fee per hour and makes a profit with his hand labor, knowledge and even on the shipping of the spare parts he sales. Is that wrong or bad?
We all know how much a car mechanic charges and the same formula, as you have shown, should be used for makers with 3d printers.
We all need to feed our families and there is nothing wrong in making a profit.
We still believe there should be a BASE PRICE so we can all stand in common ground.
Regards,
José
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